Wednesday, October 15, 2008

Reflecting on all this Bible stuff

I was going to post this as a response to Lutheranchick and Baby Olivia, but I got so long winded, I decided it might be better as a regular post.
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I think the most radical question, in terms of theology, that I've seen was the one where God pondered: "I AM THAT I AM?"

But that was a typo.

Actually, the question about Jonathan and David's relationship has been the most unexpected that I've seen.

All of the answers are literal. Also they exclusively use the KJV.

And you're right Lutheranchick, beyond even Esther, the questions highlight either the Bible's most submissive or sexualized women (which is a real competition, I mean, come on!). Jezebel is a favorite. We even encountered the question: "Who was the first woman raped in the Bible." Yikes, that identifies a focus for you.

They also focus much more on OT. I was trying to spread the HG category evenly between OT and NT, but it was not possible.

J.D. and I were discussing the "trivia but not trivial" thing too. We agreed, most of it is very trivial. I think that authoritative subtitle was part of the absurd delight I took in buying the game.

As far as these questions, I think I could have answered 11 correctly, guessing on two, but the name of the cave where their bones were buried... yeah right, somehow they didn't emphasize that in LDS seminary class, and I didn't take the time to memorize it. Actually, most of what I know about the OT comes from Dr. Clark's classes anyway and reading literature.

I've been having flashbacks of my childhood religious experiences too Catherine. :) We only read parts of the Bible that pertained to whatever lesson they wanted to teach us. The most vivid experience I remember of actively NOT reading was when Brother Dobb had us read Corinthians 13, the verses about charity, quoted at oh-so-many weddings, which are nice. But, being my nerdy self, I actually read Corinthians 14 too.

After class I brought up the text to him and questioningly pointed out this verse, asking "Brother Dobb, what about this":

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Cor. 14:34). I remember the dismissive response I got. He rolled his eyes and said: "Oh sheesh Tamara." He essentially shut me up for even asking about women asking questions/speaking. Poetic in its irony.

You don't forget things like that. They also tend to make you think....

In college seminary I was chewed out for bringing the NRSV to class instead of the KJV and asking questions there too. We took turns reading, and people found my NRSV text disconcerting. One classmate exclaimed, "Why would you bring THAT book here? The language and ideas are so much more powerful and beautiful in THIS one." I just didn't see why, if I had Old Testament class right before seminary, I needed to make a special trip to get my KJV. (Underlying theme: difference and real questioning... not so tolerated). I was also in trouble for even taking that class. The religion classes and Dr. Clark personally were often the topics of much hostility. But at that point, I refused to believe asking questions and using my God-given-brain were inherently acts lacking in faith. Toward the end, I realized I just didn't fit THAT community any more. I had moved into a new one, a much lonelier, but more honest (for me) place.

I like that George Eliot was fond of quoting these lines from Tennyson's "In Memoriam": "There lives more faith in honest doubt / Believe me, than in half the creeds."

8 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hey and don't forget what Guinn Batten said about the NSRV---that it wasn't as good (or did she say it wasn't the standard 'scholarly') text!

Also, in my little stash of cards that I kept against Michael's will, I had the following questions:

1) For what was Miriam punished? (jealousy)

2)When Samson's wife was given by her Philistine father to another man, what did he do for revenge on the Philistines? (A: he burned their crops---taught them, dammit! dontcha love the whole possession thing, you take mine, I'll take yours)

Then there are a couple of really confusing/trivial/downright stupid questions:

1) In the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church, which office is immediately below that of the Pope?

Answer: cardinal;

Actually, it's some guy who is a special cardinal who is in charge, then like this council of cardinals. It's not just any old cardinal. But why would anybody care to know this unless they were a Catholic? even as a Catholic, who cares?

2) Who was the first French Protestant?

Answer: Saint Joan of Arc. Um, this answer is really dumb, and I'm also sorry, but I think I really disagree. The Protestant Reformation started way way way before Joan of Arc came along....

3) When beseiged by Titus of Rome, what did the Jews eat, fulfilling prophecy of Deuteronomy 28:52-53?

Answer: their children. Mind you, the card cites the verse on the question as it's proof!!!! I looked up Deut 28.52-53, and it doesn't mention Titus of Rome, just the prophecy. Where's the historical accuracy or the actual evidence of the actual eating? Talk about your antisemitism!

4) and finally, the most confusing question (at least to me):

Who is the 'him' in this verse?:

"But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as it took 'it' from Saul, whom I put away before thee"

(imagine the quotes stand for italics--stupid google won't let me use their tags!)

I am confused because why is him italicized in the question, but then it italicized in the verse?

The answer is Solomon, but I am still confused. Maybe I am missing something here, or maybe it's another him/it typo.


But I also have to include one of my favorites:

Who was Jonathan's 'best friend'? (tee hee)

We all know the answer, for his love "was wonderful, passing the love of women."

And now I have to really read Israel Campbell's narrative. If I haven't said so already, thank you again for getting it out of library jail.

Catherine

Olivia said...

Crap I got the verse wrong because of a typo on my part---

Who is the 'him' in this verse:

"But my mercy shall not depart away from him as I took 'it' from Saul, whom I put away before thee."

That's the correct verse, with the words in 'quotes' meant to represent italics.

So what do you make of it?

Just asking....

vesperstar said...

It was GB who made me change all my Jesus' to Jesus's!

Wow, you got all the insane questions!

The prophecy fulfilled of eating their children, holy crap, yeah break off a piece of that anti-Semitism. I'm thinking the prophecy questions are all going to be that way: "See, we found some historical event that kind of fits with a sentence in the Bible!"

We may have to skip that category, or open it up to the most bizarre applications. Get creative, you know, award a prize for the most creative reading & application of scripture.

I randomly pointed to a passage:
Numbers 1:46 "Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty." Wow, that's the number of people who ate at McDonald's yesterday! Prophecy fulfilled.

As for:
"But my mercy shall not depart away from him as I took 'it' from Saul, whom I put away before thee."

I'm guessing the LORD is speaking to David here about Solomon, "him." David was the middle man between Saul and Solomon, and the Davidic Covenant with God was supposed to be unbreakable, extending on and on through his descendants, the first of which to rule was Solomon. (Which also explains the emphasis you'll see a lot that Jesus came from the House of David). At least that's what I make of it, but I'm not the authority here.

Good luck reading your liberated book. There will be no studying done here today. I have people drilling holes in my apartment walls. Quadrangle sent over guys to install some stupid phone for the outside. It REALLY is literally a phone. Why don't they just fix the intercom system?... Probably because that would actually make sense and not require drilling new holes in all the apartments. I called J.D. and told him. He wants to paint the phone red, so it will be "the red line." Anyway, I'm not leaving because they keep walking in and out and scaring the kitties. Then, the guy said to me about Sophie: "You can tell that cat has been abused."

Granted, we didn't have Sophie for the first 9 months of her life, but I did not appreciate that comment. How is my cat supposed to react to strange people drilling HOLES in THE WALL????

Lora V. said...

Are you listening to the debate right now? Obama just brought up Ledbetter.

Olivia said...

What presumption!!!!

You can tell that cat has been abused?! Oh yeah, I've been in the back bedroom beating her with a cord. Or can he tell that cat has been abused because he has abused cats in the past. Or it's his current hobby. Hmmm........Parkview always did hire sketchy people....I know it's Quadrangle and has been for years, but to me, it's always Pukeview.

We just finished watching the (delayed and recorded) debates. McCain occasionally made 'some' sense, but to my ears he mostly sounded like a doddering old weirdo. Really, he sounded so whiny in the part about the attack ads. And did you catch the part about him being proud of Palin and her family? And her tough husband? Did he really need to throw that in?

I also wanted to share another question with you on a BT card Olivia randomly handed to me:

who was the first rapist in the bible?

Isn't that just a lovely question? I won't give the answer in case you want to put in on the list. It's in the N category, which also has the question "how many generations are there from Sarah to Benjamin" (and from Adam to Noah) I guess I should know that, but I kinda skipped over all the begats and stuff.

Cheers!
Catherine

PS--I thought of a really snarky answer to the Pope question---the altar boy.

Also, I won't call you today, since it's already like 10.50. But I love the Numbers prophecy. I totally cracked up, laughing out loud.

I HAVE to read the KJV for my field, since it was what everyone read during the 19th century. Fun! Really, I guess it's not so bad, just somewhat undecipherable at times. I prefer reading Abraham Lincoln's speeches incorporating its passages...but then again, I think his speeches are pretty brilliant. (Can you tell I've been reading a little Lincoln lately)?

Olivia said...

DISCLAIMER
When I say the KJV isn't so bad, I am merely commenting on it as a literary text, NOT a theological text. I use it pretty much only on a literary basis.

I only mean to say that I prefer a more modern translation for theological purposes.

vesperstar said...

I did hear that earlier about Ledbetter too Lora, go Obama!

vesperstar said...

Yeah, I thought that comment about Sophie was really stupid. He kept saying rude, clueless things too. For example, I went into the BATHROOM and shut the door when he left the apartment. He came back to work on the hallway closet (next to the bathroom) and said, "Geez, shutting all the doors, a guy is just trying to do his job!"

Yeah, well, I'm just trying to LIVE in MY apartment dude. By the way, nobody told me you were going to come rip up my closet and walls today.

They didn't even finish, so they'll be back again tomorrow.